This Date in Aviation History: September 19 - September 21

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 09/21/2018 at 12:35 • Filed to: wingspan, planelopnik history, Planelopnik

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Welcome to This Date in Aviation History , getting of you caught up on milestones, important historical events and people in aviation from September 19 through September 21.

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(US Air Force)

September 21, 1964 – The first flight of the North American XB-70 Valkyrie. During the Second World War, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! evolved into an extremely destructive endeavor, and reached an earth-shattering crescendo with the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on Hiroshima and Nagasaki that finally brought an end to the most destructive war in human history. The Nuclear Age had dawned, but the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (ICBM) that we know and fear today were yet to be developed. Attacking an enemy with nuclear weapons was still a mission for long-range bombers and , like their predecessors, early postwar bombers remained susceptible to fighters and interceptors. But with the arrival of supersonic bombers, it was hoped that these planes could fly at altitudes and speeds beyond the reach of contemporary interceptors, and such was the genesis of the radical North American XB-70 Valkyrie. However, by the time the Valkyrie finally took to the air, the ICBM had taken over the role of nuclear attack, and the Valkyrie became an anachronism, a bomber for an earlier age.

North American XB-70 Number 1 in flight. Note the lowered wingtips to take advantage of the compression left. (US Air Force)

In 1955, the US Air Force issued a requirement for a new strategic bomber that would have the payload capacity of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! but the supersonic speed of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Various radical designs were considered, but the rapid development of supersonic science indicated that a large delta wing, with forward canards for added stability and control, would be the most efficient shape for such a bomber. Initially, the Air Force planned for a bomber that would fly to the target, drop the bomb from lower altitude, and then “scoot” away from the blast at supersonic speed. But engineers discovered that, from the standpoint of fuel use versus miles traveled, it was actually more efficient for the bomber to spend its entire mission at top speed.

The “six pack,” six afterburning GE turbojets at the back of the Valkyrie. (Author unknown)

In the case of the XB-70, that top speed would be Mach 3 at 70,000 feet, propelled by six !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! afterburning turbojets, all mounted side by side in what was known as the “six pack.” That sort of performance generated a lot of heat, so fuel was pumped through heat exchangers before flowing to the engines in order to keep the aircraft cool. North American engineers also discovered a way to make use of a phenomenon known as !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , where the shock wave made by the plane helped create lift. Drooping wingtips allowed the Valkyrie to take full advantage of this effect, with the added benefit of decreasing drag.

XB-70 Number 2 flies with four other aircraft powered by General Electric engines. Shortly after this top photo was taken, the pilot of the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter (second from right with red tail) lost control and flipped over the top of the Valkyrie, breaking off the vertical stabilizer and rendering the giant bomber uncontrollable. The F-104 pilot and one XB-70 pilot were killed. (US Air Force)

Though the XB-70 would be unreachable by any contemporary fighters, advances in air-to-air missiles suddenly put the whole project in doubt, causing the Air Force to switch its doctrine from high altitude supersonic bombing to low altitude penetration. Thus, the Valkyrie would have to be flown at low levels, where it was barely faster than the B-52, while carrying a smaller payload. Ultimately, the XB-70 became a Cold War Era political football, the stuff of campaign promises and political bargaining, and the project was canceled in 1961. With no real bombing mission for the plane to perform, the two XB-70s that were completed became testbeds for supersonic research. On June 8, 1966, Valkyrie No. 2 was lost in a mid-air collision during a formation flight photo shoot for engine manufacturer GE that caused the death of two pilots and the serious injury of a third. Aircraft No. 1 continued to serve in its research role, and made its final supersonic flight in February 1969 when it was flown to the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton, Ohio.  

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(US Army)

September 21, 1961 – The first flight of the Boeing CH-47 Chinook. When the US Army placed an order for the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in 1943, it marked the beginning of a relationship with rotor wing aircraft that would eventually give rise to the practice of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that became a primary means of attack during the Vietnam War. But the Army soon realized that, while the helicopter was good at moving soldiers, they needed something bigger to lift artillery, heavy equipment, and greater numbers of soldiers. For a time, that role was filled by the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , but work began in 1957 to procure a modern, turbine-powered helicopter as a replacement for the Mojave that could provide more lifting power and higher speeds than the CH-37's pair of radial engines could provide.

The HC-1B during a test flight. (US Army)

The Army was of two minds on the project. One group imagined the new helicopter as being able to carry a full squad of 15 soldiers, while the other group wanted a much larger helicopter capable of moving artillery pieces and other battlefield supplies. The second group carried the day, and Vertol began working on a tandem helicopter, with two rotors providing extra lift for heavy loads. (Vertol was originally !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , an early advocate of tandem helicopter design, and was acquired by Boeing in 1960.) The first helicopter to come out of the Army requirement was the YHC-1A, but the Army deemed that it was too small, though it was eventually adopted by the US Marine Corps as the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in 1962, where its smaller size would be an advantage for the carrier-based Marines. So Boeing Vertol enlarged the YCH-1A into the YCH-1B, which finally became the CH-47 Chinook following the Army tradition of naming helicopters after Native American tribes. The new helicopter was powered by a pair of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turboshaft engines each producing 4,733 hp and turning counter-rotating propellers. The two engines gave the Chinook a top speed of 170 knots, faster than the utility and attack helicopters of its day. They also supplied enough power to carry up to 55 troops or 28,000 pounds of cargo.

A Chinook brings supplies to a hilltop in Vietnam in 1967. (US Army)

The Chinook entered service with the Army in Vietnam in 1965, where its size quickly became invaluable in the supply of forward bases. Its lifting power also made it possible to haul artillery pieces to remote mountaintop fire bases that were unreachable by roads. Not only was the Chinook popular with the US Army, but it was exported to 23 nations and remains in production, with over 1,200 aircraft built, making it the most-produced tandem helicopter in history. Continuously upgraded since its introduction, the Chinook now has newer, more powerful Lycoming engines (now produced by Honeywell), composite rotor blades, redundant electrical systems and advanced avionics. Along with its fixed-wing heavy lifting counterpart, the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the CH-47 is one of the few aircraft that has seen a production and service life of over 50 years.

The Chinook has proven particularly useful in Afghanistan, where its powerful engines allow it to operate at higher altitudes and in hotter temperatures than other Army helicopters. Here, Chinooks arrive to pick up US Army soldiers following a mission. (US Army)

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(US Air Force)

September 21, 1942 – The first flight of the Boeing B-29 Superfortress. In the years leading up to WWII, there were two main schools of thought about how best to use bombers. One was !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , which sought to defeat the enemy by destroying their means of production of war materiel while also destroying the morale of the civilian population. The other was !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , in which bombers worked more closely with ground troops to carry out specific battlefield tactics and destroy targets of immediate military value. While Germany, with their !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! warfare, became almost wholly invested in the theories of tactical bombing, America and her allies followed the doctrines of strategic bombing, particularly the theories espoused by Italian general !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and American general !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . To that end, the Americans produced ever larger bombers, capable of carrying heavy loads of bombs at great distances.

Pre-production YB-29 Superfortresses. Production aircraft were delivered unpainted. (US Air Force)

When the Superfortress entered service in 1944, it was the most technologically advanced bomber of its era, and even though it arrived late in the war, it had a profound effect on the later stages of the Pacific campaign. Boeing’s work on a pressurized bomber began all the way back in 1938 as an independent project. Then, in 1939, at the urging of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the Army began to pursue a so-called “superbomber,” one that would be capable of carrying 20,000 lbs of bombs over 2,600 miles at a speed of 400 mph. Boeing’s previous work formed the basis for their entry into the competition between Boeing, Consolidated, Lockheed and Douglas to produce the new bomber, and Boeing received an order for two prototypes in August 1940. By May of 1941, the order was increased to 250 production bombers, and then to 500 in January 1942. The !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a more traditional design that was not selected in the initial competition, was ordered into production in small numbers should the production of the B-29 run into difficulties.

B-29s of the 468th Bombardment Group attack Rangoon Burma in 1945. (US Air Force)

At the time the B-29 was being developed, the piston-powered aircraft was reaching the zenith of technological advancement, and the Superfortress was at the forefront. In addition to its streamlined shape and the adoption of pressurization, the B-29 was armed with up to ten !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .50 caliber machine guns in remotely operated, motorized turrets. With onboard targeting computers and a system that could link the guns together, one gunner could control two or more sets of guns to focus the greatest amount of firepower against enemy fighters. And that was only if the fighters could reach the high-flying bomber. Operating at nearly 32,000 feet and at speeds of up to 350 mph, the B-29 was almost unreachable by most Japanese fighters. But as good as design of the B-29 was, serious problems with the complex !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! radial engines plagued the early development of the new bomber. Those problems were eventually ironed out, but it wasn’t until the introduction of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! engine after the war that the problems were entirely solved.

B-29s operating from Tinian in the Mariana Islands in 1945. Japanese-held islands were captured and quickly turned into forward air bases. (US Air Force)

The Army Air Forces originally intended the B-29 to be used against Germany, but delays in production meant that it was flown exclusively against Japan in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The B-29's extreme range proved a vital asset as it attacked Japanese forces and island of Japan from bases in China before relocating to bases built on Pacific islands captured captured during the Allies’ !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! campaign. When conventional bombs proved to less effective against the scattered Japanese military infrastructure, B-29s were flown in devastating !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! raids against Japanese cities. And specially modified Silverplate B-29s were used in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that hastened the end of the war.

Boeing B-50D Superfortress. Note the more powerful engines, enlarged vertical stabilizer, and external fuel tanks. Developed from the WWII-era B-29, the B-50 served until 1965. (US Air Force)

While most WWII-era bombers were retired with the end of the war in 1945, the technologically advanced Superfortress continued its career and flew bombing missions in the Korean War. As the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , it served as the basis for one of the first aerial refueling tankers, and the upgraded !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! served until 1965, primarily in the reconnaissance role. It also formed the basis for the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! passenger airliner and the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! series of large cargo aircraft. Though nearly 4,000 Surperfortresses were produced, only two remain flying today.

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Short Takeoff

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The destroyed Titan II missile silo following the explosion (Author unknown)

September 19, 1980 – A Titan II intercontinental ballistic missile explodes in its silo in Damascus, Arkansas. While performing routine maintenance on the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! missile, a member of the two-man propellant transfer system (PTS) team dropped an 8-pound socket which fell 80 feet and struck the missile, piercing the first-stage fuel tank. The puncture caused a leak of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! fuel, which would ignite if it came in contact with the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! used as an oxidizer. At 3:00 am, the mixture ignited, blowing off the 740-ton silo door and ejecting the second stage, with its !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , roughly 100 feet outside of the missile complex. The launch station was completely destroyed, but the safety measures on the warhead prevented it from detonating. Senior Airman David Livingston, who had entered the silo prior to the explosion, was killed, and 21 others were seriously injured.

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(US Air Force)

September 19, 1969 – The first flight of the Mil Mi-24, a large and heavily armed helicopter gunship that is also capable of carrying eight passengers or troops. With armament to provide !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (CAS) and room to transport soldiers, the Mi-24 (NATO reporting name Hind) is essentially a flying infantry fighting vehicle. The Mi-24 was developed from the earlier !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and has a heavily armored fuselage and titanium rotor blades that can withstand hits from 12.7mm rounds. It entered service with the Soviet Union in 1972, and an estimated 2,300 have been produced for the Russian Air Force and more than 30 export countries.

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(NASA)

September 19, 1962 – The first flight of the Aero Spacelines Pregnant Guppy, an oversized cargo aircraft that was developed from the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! founder and former USAF pilot John Conroy conceived the idea, and obtained former Pan Am and BOAC Stratocruisers to construct the giant cargo hauler. The addition of the large cargo area gave the Pregnant Guppy a triple-bubble cross section which could carry 50,000 pounds of cargo, and was used to transport the first and second stages of NASA’s !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! rockets to Cape Canaveral as part of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Only one Pregnant Guppy was built, but it was followed by the larger and more capable !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The original Pregnant Guppy was scrapped in 1979.

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September 19, 1949 – The first flight of the Fairey Gannet. The Gannet arose out of a 1945 Admiralty requirement for a turboprop-powered !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (ASW) and strike aircraft. The Gannet had a crew of three and was powered by an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! engine, which consisted of two turboprop engines mounted side-by-side and turning a contra-rotating propeller via a gearbox. After the Gannet entered service in the ASW role, it was further developed into AEW.1 !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (AEW) variant to replace the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and made the first carrier deck landing by a turboprop aircraft on 1950. When the ASW mission was taken over by helicopters, some Gannets transitioned to the carrier onboard delivery role (COD). A total of 348 were built in both AEW and ASW variants, and they served Australia, Germany, Indonesia and the United Kingdom until their retirement in 1978.

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(Bf 109 illustration by Jerry Crandall)

September 20, 1993 – The death of Erich Hartmann. Born on April 19, 1922, Hartmann was taught to fly by his mother, one of the first female glider pilots in Germany. During WWII, Hartmann became the most successful fighter pilot in history with 352 victories to his credit, all but seven coming against Russian aircraft on the Eastern Front. Over the course of 1,404 sorties, Hartmann, known as the Blonde Knight, was never shot down or forced down by enemy fire, though he did crash land 14 times, all due to mechanical problems or damage caused by the debris from aircraft he had dispatched. Following the war, Hartmann spent 10 years in Soviet prison camps before his release in 1955, and then joined the newly-formed West German Luftwaffe as the first commander of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , named after !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , better known as the Red Baron. Hartmann resigned from the Luftwaffe in 1970 over his opposition to the Luftwaffe’s adoption of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and ended his career as a flight instructor before his death at age 71.

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(US Navy)

September 20, 1951 – The first flight of the Grumman F9F (F-9) Cougar, a carrier-based fighter developed for the US Navy. Orginally conceived as an improved version of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the Cougar was such a significant upgrade to its predecessor that the Navy gave it a new name, even though it was essentially a Panther with swept wings and much more powerful engines. The development of the swept-wing Cougar was spurred by the arrival of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! over Korea, though the Panther was too late to see service in the war, and the Cougar was replaced by the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! before the outbreak of the Vietnam War. Following their retirement from Navy service, many Cougars ended their life as as QF-9 target drones.

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The Gloster Meteor with turboprop engines. Note the added stabilizers on the tail, and the feathered number 2 engine. (Author unknown)

September 20, 1945 – A modified Gloster Meteor F.1 is the first aircraft to fly under turboprop power. A single Meteor F.1, serial number EE227, had its !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turbojets removed and replaced with !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turboprops. The undercarriage was lengthened to provide clearance for the 7-foot 7-inch diameter Rotol props which were turned through a reduction gear. Following its first flight, the turboprop Meteor was subsequently flown at higher power and with smaller props to help develop what was a very complicated engine control system. The testing program ended in 1948.

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September 20, 1943 – The first flight of the de Havilland Vampire, the second jet fighter to enter service with the RAF following the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and the first to use a single engine. The Vampire is notable for its twin tail design, with the engine housed in a central, egg-shaped fuselage. This arrangement shortened the tailpipe and allowed full use of the limited power available in the early turbojet engines. The Vampire entered service in 1945, where they acted as a ground attack aircraft while the Meteor took on the role of fighter. Vampires saw action in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and were phased out by the RAF by the end of the 1950s. The last export Vampires were retired by the Rhodesian Air Force in 1979.

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(NASA)

September 21, 2012 – The Space Shuttle flies atop the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft (SCA) for the last time. With the end of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in 2011, the retired Shuttles were distributed to various museums and sites around the country. Endeavour was the last to be delivered and, during its ferry flight, the SCA made low passes over Florida’s Space Coast and NASA centers in Mississippi and Louisiana before landing in Houston to refuel. Next, it flew over the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in New Mexico, over Tucson, Arizona as a tribute to Congresswoman !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , then on to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in California where many Shuttle landings took place. On its final day, the SCA and Endeavour made low level passes over Sacramento, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, and Los Angeles, before landing at Los Angeles International Airport. Endeavour is now on display at the California Science Center in Los Angeles.

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September 21, 1984 – The first flight of the Dassault Falcon 900, a business jet produced by !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of France and, with its sister ship the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the only trijets currently in production. The Falcon 900 is the continuation of the line of Falcon jets that began with the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and continued with the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . With a crew of two, the Falcon 900 can accommodate up to 19 passengers, and its three !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turbofans provide a top speed of Mach 0.87 and an intercontinental range of over 4,000 miles. More than 500 have been built since production began in 1984, and the 900 remains in production today.

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September 21, 1945 – The first flight of the Hawker Sea Fury, a fighter developed for the Royal Air Force during WWII. When the RAF canceled their order at the end of the war, the Hawker developed a carrier-based version for the Royal Navy. Powered by a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! 18-cylinder radial engine, the Sea Fury was the last propeller-driven fighter to enter service with the Royal Navy and, with a top speed of 460 mph, one of the fastest single piston-engined aircraft ever built. Introduced in 1947 and sold to nine export countries, the Sea Fury saw action during the Korean War, and was flown by the Cuban Fuerza Aérea Revolucionaria (Revolutionary Air Force) during the 1961 !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . A total of 864 were produced, and the last Sea Furys were retired by the Burmese Air Force in 1968.

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Connecting Flights

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If you enjoy these Aviation History posts, please let me know in the comments. And if you missed any of the past articles, you can find them all at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . You can also find more stories about aviation, aviators and airplane oddities at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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random001 > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 12:51

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My day is complete.  Shut it all down!

ttyymmnn > random001 09/21/2018 at 12:54

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Any one thing, or all of it?

Thanks.

random001 > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 12:56

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The weekly TDiAH post is up.  Day done!  Thanks again for doing this!

ttyymmnn > random001 09/21/2018 at 13:03

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Thank you. I’m glad you are enjoying them. 

user314 > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 13:14

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So many great entries today!

NAA threw out a lot of ideas to keep the B-70 program going, including an SST version , acting as a mothership for an upgraded X-15, a recce variant to supplement the SR-71, and adding GAM-87 Skybolt ALBMs:

Nothing helped, but it’s fun to think what might have been....

Much like the Huey, t here was a gunship version of the CH-47:

“ Hind ” from Digital Integration was the best helicopter game, which is fitting, since the Mi-24 is probably the best helo the USSR produced.

Though nearly 4,000 Surperfortresses were produced, only two remain flying today.

*Pours one out in memory of Kee Bird *

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 13:17

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i like chinooks... they saved me mum

okay okay a bit over dramatic.. but still.. her house might have gone up in flames if the rainmakers hadnt turned up

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 13:29

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They made a movie of this, it was actually pretty good.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > user314 09/21/2018 at 13:35

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There is something to be said for the Ka-50 / Ka-52. Sure, it can’t carry troops like the Mi-24, but it’ s got coaxial rotors.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 13:38

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What is it with the Brits and their crazy engine configurations?

ttyymmnn > user314 09/21/2018 at 13:49

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K ee Bird was such a tragedy. I hope they guy who bankrolled it had insurance.

This was a good day. The post coming up on 10/2 is huge: over 6,000 words. I think it might be the biggest ever.

Thanks for the comments, and thanks for reading.

ttyymmnn > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 09/21/2018 at 13:51

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I only learned about it when I happened to catch a documentary on it on PBS. It is perhaps the epitome of, “If anything can go wrong, it will.” I mean, the dude dropped a (very large) socket. It could have bounced anywhere . And it hit the missile. In just the right place.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 13:53

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I think that is what I saw, and it’s been a few years so now it seems like a movie and not a documentary.

ttyymmnn > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 09/21/2018 at 13:53

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Are you referring to any specific a/c today, or in general? I think the Brits should get credit for thinking outside the box, even if it didn’t always work out. It’s a shame that they basically gave up their industry to buy American jets. Same with Canada.

user314 > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 09/21/2018 at 13:54

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It wasn’t just the Brits. The US produced the unfortunately - named   Ryan Fireball, which had a turbojet and a radial engine, t he XF-84H “Thunderscreech” which was a turboprop with supersonic propeller and would make people on the flight line sick and be easily heard 25 miles away, and the XP-81, which had a turboprop and a turbojet.

Part of the problem with that whole “They did this without computers, only slide-ruler s and pencils!” thing is you wind up having to build planes only to find out they don’t actually   work.

Tristan > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 13:55

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Turboprop power is best power.

ttyymmnn > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 09/21/2018 at 13:57

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It was on The American Experience, called Command and Control , and w as heavy with re-enactments. So it may well have felt like a movie. It’s available online , but it looks like you need to have some sort of membership to view it. It is probably on YouTube, though.

ttyymmnn > Tristan 09/21/2018 at 13:58

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I’ve been meaning to do an article about the early turboprop airliners. The TP engines gave the airlines the most bang for their jet engine buck back in the day, though they had their limitations when compared to the jets. Fascinating stuff, really.

ttyymmnn > user314 09/21/2018 at 14:00

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Part of the problem with that whole “They did this without computers, only slide-rulers and pencils!” thing is you wind up having to build planes only to find out they don’t actually   work.

That, for me, is exactly why the 40s-60s era is so fascinating, particularly the early jet age. And think about the test pilots. They had no idea if the thing would fly at all. Nowadays, we do all sorts of computer modeling and CAD and all that and there’s little doubt the new plane will fly. Back then, it was kind of a crap shoot.

user314 > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 14:02

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Tom Clancy later used the idea in The Sum of all Fears: A work crew was removing the warhead from a decommissioned Soviet ICBM when one of them slipped on ice and dropped a wrench.  They had just enough time to evacuate the silo before it blew. The resulting explosion, which coincidentally happened right after Palestinian terrorists set off a nuke in Denver and managed to get the Red Army to start shooting at NATO tanks in Berlin, almost convinced the US the USSR was launching a first strike...

ttyymmnn > user314 09/21/2018 at 14:04

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Clancy writes such positive, uplifting novels. I will admit, though, that I’ve never read any of them. 

user314 > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 14:11

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Oh absolutely. Sure there were wind tunnels, and NACA was doing yeoman’ s work research on wing shapes and so on, but t hose first twenty years or so after WWII are littered with a number of planes that basically amounted to someone saying: “Hey, think this’ll work?” and getting back “Fuck it, let’s build it and find out!”. 

user314 > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 14:19

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I don’t know that they’d have the same impact, especially the early books like Red October or Red Storm Rising , if you read them now, absent the Cold War zeitgeist.

ttyymmnn > user314 09/21/2018 at 14:24

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“Fuck it, let’s build it and find out!” And then find some sap to fly it.  

ttyymmnn > user314 09/21/2018 at 14:27

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I was born in 1966, and remember the Cold War well. Back in about 1988, I was playing in a summer concert band in Norfolk when Russian ships called on Norfolk Naval Base. It was the first time a Russian naval  ship had been in an American port since WWII, and the Wall was still standing. They brought along many troupes of performers, dancers, bands, etc. We got to play under one of the Russian conductors, and he conducted the Russian National Anthem. That was quite an experience. It was also a thing to live in Norfolk, home to the world’s largest naval base, and know that if the shit hit the fan we were at the top of the target list. 

Tristan > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 15:40

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I’d love that! I’ve spent a lot of years intimately knowing the ins  and outs of the Rolls Royce/Allison T-56. I work on turbofans now, but I miss the mechanical wondery of turboprops!

ttyymmnn > Tristan 09/21/2018 at 15:55

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Then I might pick your brain for some information. I asked f86sabre about it, and got a great email from him about the early turboprop engines. I understand that they were preferred basically because they were more fuel efficient. My question is, “Why?” He said that, essentially, you get more “grunt” from a turboprop because they can get more pulling power from each turn of the big prop, and could therefore operate at lower engine speeds. So, particularly for shorter routes at lower altitudes , the turbop rops would burn less fuel. Whereas the early turbojets were happier spinning at higher speeds in the thinner air of high altitude, and were better on longer routes.

Basically, I need some general information to get the article started (and what I just wrote might just fit the bill) . After the intro, it’s simply a matter of listing some of the early turboprop airliners and giving a bit of their history. But understanding why they were important will give the article some much-needed context. And h istory is nothing without context.  

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 16:23

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The Double Mamba in the Fairey Gannet, the Napier Nomad (1 & 2) , the Deltic, the Commer Knocker and I’m sure many others that I’ve missed.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > user314 09/21/2018 at 16:28

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The U.S. examples are just sticking two very different power plants in the airplane. There were pretty good reasons for the Fireball as the turbojets of the time didn’t have the throttle response necessary for carrier operations.  The Thunderscreech on the other hand, I’m not sure there was a good reason for that other than to see if they could.

The British just made some weird power plants like the Double Mamba which is pretty tame as far as that goes. They also came up with the Napier Nomad engines, the Deltic, the Commer Knocker, the double radial arrangement in the Bristol Brabazon, and I’m sure many other oddities.

user314 > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 09/21/2018 at 16:38

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And now I’m wondering if Northrop had gotten its hands on the Double Mamba if the B-35 would have worked out after all.....

ttyymmnn > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 09/21/2018 at 16:44

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There were pretty good reasons for the Fireball as the turbojets of the time didn’t have the throttle response necessary for carrier operations.

The Navy also straight up didn’t trust the jet engine. The unfortunately named Fireball does have the distinction of making the first jet-powered landing on a carrier, but only because the radial crapped out. T hey also had the nasty tendency to break in half when they hit the deck.

The Thunderscreech was an attempt to make the aircraft carrier-launchable. They hoped the propeller would give them the grunt needed to get off the deck in the pre-catapult days. But the thing was so damned loud that you could hear it from miles away, and the supersonic shock waves from the propeller caused acute nausea in anybody close by. Not great for a carrier. 

ttyymmnn > user314 09/21/2018 at 16:45

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Good question. The B-35 was everything the AF wanted as a propeller plane, with great range and payload. But the AF got obsessed with jets, and putting them in the flying wing halved its range. By that time, other more traditional aircraft were online and the B-35 was scrapped. It’s a shame, really. 

user314 > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 16:52

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The Screech would have made an interesting weapon though. You don’t need to carry bombs, rockets or bullets, just fly around the enemy and let the noise incapacitate everyone!

f86sabre > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 22:06

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My thoughts on the XB-70...

pip bip - choose Corrour > ttyymmnn 09/21/2018 at 22:22

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at least David Livingston went out with a bang.

ttyymmnn > f86sabre 09/21/2018 at 23:44

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I imagine you’ve seen it at Dayton. Holy crap, that thing is big.

ttyymmnn > pip bip - choose Corrour 09/21/2018 at 23:45

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I guess.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > ttyymmnn 09/22/2018 at 00:17

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So odd question- can a person think of a turboprop as basically a large bypass turbofan, but without the duct work?

ttyymmnn > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/22/2018 at 00:25

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I’m probably not the best person to ask, and I see your point. B ut I think what you describe is more like an uneducated fan, or propfan .

f86sabre > ttyymmnn 09/22/2018 at 09:04

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Yep.  It’s a beast. One of my engineers’ dad worked on it as an executive with one of the main OEMs. Knew all the pilots.  Has some pretty good stories. 

Tristan > ttyymmnn 09/22/2018 at 12:37

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That’s essentially it. They’re good at lower altitudes, shorter takeoffs and lower speeds. Through the magic of gear reduction, a smaller high RPM, low torque jet engine can be turned into a low RPM torque monster. The T-56's power section turns at 13,820 RPM in the flight range. The reduction gearbox has a ratio of 13.54:1, converting that to 1,020 propeller RPM. Lots of torque feeding to those big ol’ prop blades and shoving loads of air over the wings results in a great recipe for short takeoffs and heavy lifting capabilities. It’s why there has never been a replacement for the C-130. The C-17 was supposed to do it, but the C-130 can land and take off virtually anywhere and can perform missions the C-17 could never dream of. The first C-130 flew in 1954, and Lockheed is contracted to continue building them until (IIRC) 2036. 82 years of production with updates mainly to the avionics and engines.

Tristan > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/22/2018 at 12:40

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Not really. Turbofans use bypass air to add thrust to the engine’s total thrust. Turboprops rely on the propeller to generate propulsion, providing almost nothing in the way of thrust from the actual powerplant .

ttyymmnn > Tristan 09/22/2018 at 13:20

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Thanks. f86sabre mentioned the C-130 in pretty much the same way. I also recall reading somewhere that the turboprops turn at a constant rpm , and changes in speed are obtained by changing the pitch of the prop. Does that sound right?

Tristan > ttyymmnn 09/22/2018 at 13:27

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Correct. In the case of the T-56, it’s controllable pitch/RPM in the ground range, and constant speed from flight idle to mil. The engine and propeller are governed to 100% by the prop. Advancing the throttle adds more fuel, which wants to speed up the engine, so the prop responds by increasing blade angle and taking a bigger bite of air, increasing the load to keep the engine at 100% rpm.

ttyymmnn > Tristan 09/22/2018 at 13:31

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Thanks. I’m going to have to read that a couple more times to get my head around it.

Tristan > ttyymmnn 09/22/2018 at 13:38

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The reason I love the T-56 so much is because it’s such a complex and mechanical engine. It’s the last engine in the USAF’s inventory that requires you to be a subject matter expert and really know the systems and operating principles behind it. F-100s are far simpler and a computer troubleshoots it for you most of the time. I’m going to shed tears when the last legacy model C-130 goes into mothballs at the boneyard.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > ttyymmnn 09/23/2018 at 22:55

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That is an epic autocorrect you got there. I assume you tried to type unducted, but it  came out the other side of autocorrect as uneducated.

ttyymmnn > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 09/24/2018 at 08:06

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I may have been a bit in my cups at the time I wrote that. I know I really struggled with the autocorrect on propfan. But yeah, that’s a good one.

Hamtractor > ttyymmnn 09/25/2018 at 13:58

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That Sea Fury is one sexy plane...  As far as the Valkyrie goes, surely the Russians crapped their pants when they saw that thing, it STILL looks like it’s from the future all these years later...

ttyymmnn > Hamtractor 09/25/2018 at 14:35

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They built their own .

Hamtractor > ttyymmnn 09/26/2018 at 17:22

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Which is also a sexy beast, it looked FAST sitting on the tarmac...

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ttyymmnn 11/10/2019 at 16:14

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